Zach Gardner: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Future. I’m Zach Gardner, the Chief Architect of Keyhole Software, and I set out on a mission not too long ago. I’d heard everyone talk about generative AI, and I felt like I needed to play catch-up. I needed to sprint, I needed to try to get a head start because everyone was talking about it, and I just, I didn’t feel like I knew enough about it. So, I scoured the internet, I found people in defense, in health care, in policy, you name it. But there are only a few people that I found that have a very broad, very forward-thinking, very futurist perspective who agreed to come on the show. And I have for you all today one of these people, coming to us live about a little over 3,000 miles away from where I’m sitting. I guess, uh, your background though, you look like you’re in the future just like me too, so I dig it. Uh, Dr. Mark van Rijmenam, also known as the Digital Speaker. How’s it going?

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Well, very good, Zach. Great to be on your show. I’m very much looking forward to this discussion and this dive into the future.

Zach Gardner: Awesome. And just as a reminder, all the views and opinions expressed in the program and the views and opinions of the participants do not reflect their employer, trade organizations, any yacht clubs that they are affiliated with, any loyalty cards that they hold. This is just two guys, we’re just talking, that’s all. Uh, so, to get us started off with, you know, I did a little bit of research on you. You’ve written 40 books on a bunch of different topics, things like, uh, excuse me, six books on many different topics: metaverse, data orgs, blockchain. You’ve gotten 40—that was the number I was thinking of—40 awards from various institutions. You have a master class on digital transformation, you have a digital avatar which is, I think, a first for this videocast. So why don’t you give the people that haven’t had the opportunity to, you know, subscribe to your newsletter a chance to get to know you. Just a little bit about yourself. You know, how did you get into becoming a futurist? That’s, I guess, that’s my big question.

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Well, that’s a question I get a lot. You know, how do you become a futurist? And, you know, although you do have education and programs nowadays to actually become a futurist, it sort of happened to me over the years. So I’ve been doing this for over 12 years and I consider myself a strategic futurist. So I really try to look at the future from a strategic perspective, and I do so by helping organizations—Fortune 500 companies all around the world—and governments to help them understand what’s going on with these new technologies. And I’ve moved from Big Data to blockchain to crypto to the metaverse to AI. So I sort of followed the different trends and tried to understand how they work. And I always try to, you know, live and breathe these cutting-edge technologies myself because I think you have to practice what you preach in order to really be helpful to organizations. So, that’s why I do these technologies. I was the first person in the world to deliver a TED talk in virtual reality. I was the first person, I think, who delivered a TED talk with my digital twin. I wrote a book with ChatGPT five days after ChatGPT was launched, which for me helped to understand that, you know, that launch of that product was a paradigm shift and that the world had changed since then. And as you mentioned, I have my digital twin. I’ve digitally cloned myself and you can talk to me or my digital twin, I have to say, via text, audio, and video on demand in 28 different languages, which I think is pretty cool. I also run a newsletter in which about, I think, 20 or 30,000 people follow me, which is called Synthetic Mind, where we dive into the future and what this synthetic future will bring us. And finally, I’ve just started—and this hasn’t been launched yet—but I started my fourth podcast where I’m interviewing science fiction writers because I believe science fiction writers are very, very good at looking into the future, and I believe that as organizations we can learn from them and we should learn from them to have a bit more long-term perspective. So I’ve done a few episodes now, it’s fantastic, fascinating insights. And yeah, so I really live and breathe cutting-edge technologies and I have a long-term perspective. And one final thing that I forgot to mention, which I think is quite important, is that I consider myself an optimistic dystopian, which is a bit of an oxymoron, I’m very well aware of that. But it helps me to understand, you know, the positive, the good, the bad, and the ugly of these technologies. We need to understand the bad and the ugly in order to ensure that we end up in the good. And that’s what I always share with organizations.

Zach Gardner: No, very, very interesting. You know, I always like to nerd out with people that have read, you know, like Isaac Asimov, you know, sort of Three Laws of Robotics. I think some of that stuff might be very prescient. You know, he definitely saw some things that could be an issue and, you know, sort of already anticipated them before they were.

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Absolutely. I’ve just finished watching The Three-Body Problem on Netflix.

Zach Gardner: That’s next.

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: And for those who haven’t watched it, it’s great. It’s really, really good. And, you know, the whole, the different perspectives that he takes on, among other things, technologies as well as societal issues, absolutely fascinating. So yeah, can definitely recommend that one.

Zach Gardner: Likewise. That’s next on our queue, back when Netflix used to have queues because they used to send you DVDs through the snail mail. Anyway, so I guess since this videocast does have a generative AI flavor to it, I’m curious if you could first talk about your experience writing a book with ChatGPT. Like, what were some of the things that it helped you with? Were there areas, maybe, issues where it was like, well, you know, it didn’t really give me what I wanted and you kind of had to tweak it? Like, just what was that process like working with a completely digital being as your co-author?

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Well, it was a fascinating process. I actually, you know, I put ChatGPT as a co-author on the book because it did the most work. So, basically how the process went is when I found out about ChatGPT when it was launched, I wanted to dive in straight away. So I said to ChatGPT, “We’re going to write a book about technologies and how they change in the next 50 years or so. Which technologies should we cover?” So it came back with a list of technologies such as AI, obviously, such as synthetic biology, robotics, those kinds of things. And then for each technology, I asked it, “Okay, well, given these technologies, which questions do I need to ask you in order to craft the narrative for this book, looking from now to 50 years in the future?” So it came back with a long list of questions. And so for each technology, I went through this list of questions to have a dialogue with ChatGPT, which in itself was fascinating. And then I literally copied and pasted the answers into my manuscript. The only thing I did was sort of move sentences up and down to make a better story, but I didn’t add anything or whatsoever. The other thing that I did is I had to remove some things it wrote because I quickly found out that, you know, what we now call hallucinations were quite present in the book. For example, when it said, “Robotics and AI converged in the 1980s to create self-driving cars.” Now, if only that had happened, I think our society would look a lot different today. So when I finished the book, it’s about 150 pages, when I finished the book, I edited it with AI with Grammarly. And then I said, “Okay, now come up with a title.” It came up with Future Visions. “Now come up with a subtitle.” It came up with a subtitle. And then we created a description for the book cover, which I used DALL-E to create the cover. The first cover was immediately right, which looks a little bit like your background, which was good because, you know, the covers for my other books that were written by me and, you know, designed by my publisher took a long, long time to agree on the cover. So this was a much better experience. And so when I finished the book, I asked ChatGPT to write me a review, and it wrote me a glowing review of the book. So it was a fascinating experience.

Zach Gardner: Very interesting. I mean, I think, too, one of the other use cases I’ve heard is being able to just like writer’s block. You know, you sit there, you have this just blank canvas for you to imprint your thoughts upon, and for a lot of people that can be very intimidating. So a lot of people are using it just to get a rough outline, just get some ideas down. I mean, it is interesting that you mentioned DALL-E. That’s actually what I used to create the background image for the videocast, which I think, you know, fits our theme. It’s an artificial, you know, futuristic city, a little Blade Runner-y, you know, so it worked out for us.

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: I love it, I love it.

Zach Gardner: So what do you think are some of the top three areas that people should be thinking about in terms of AI, like areas of opportunity? Where do you see this going?

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Well, I think, first of all, if we look at AI, we need to understand that we’re going to see a plethora of different types of AI, or basically all kinds of niches. So I think the first thing that we need to think about is, “What is the kind of niche AI that will benefit our organization or us as individuals?” And there are so many opportunities there. And as a result of that, we will see many different LLMs, many different models, many different products. So this will be, you know, an enormous opportunity for organizations to use AI in a specific way, which I think is the first thing. The second thing is how do you integrate those different AI models and AI tools into your workflows and into your products. So how do you use it to improve what you’re doing? How do you use it to speed up what you’re doing, and how do you integrate it seamlessly into your organizations? And I think the third thing is, and I think it’s a really important one, is the ethical side of AI, the responsible AI, and the trustworthy AI. I think we’re going to have enormous amounts of challenges there. And we’ve seen the last couple of years how the tech world is often not the most ethical or the most responsible, and that’s a challenge. So if you look at, for example, the EU, which is trying to have these regulations with the AI Act, which is a good thing, but, you know, we’re far from a global agreement on how to use AI and how to, you know, manage AI. So the challenge here is going to be how to use AI responsibly in a way that benefits us and not in a way that creates even bigger inequalities, which it very easily can, and that will be a problem. So I think these three areas are the top three for me.

Zach Gardner: So I guess there’s a little more, maybe, even personal interest, and just thinking about how these things can help our lives. I know I gave a presentation not too long ago to a group of developers, and, you know, I asked them at the beginning of the presentation, “Hey, how many of you have, you know, messed with generative AI tools, ChatGPT, any of them, right?” And, you know, about half the room raised their hands. And I said, “Now, of those people, how many of you have actually used it in your job?” And just about everyone put their hand down. And I just said, “You know, you’re missing out on some opportunities.” So, you know, for us as software developers, like, what do you think some of the more tangible use cases are for that that people should be looking at right now?

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Well, I think there are so many opportunities for software developers. I mean, I use it almost on a daily basis to create some code, but even as a non-developer. So, for example, if I look at my own newsletter and my own website, I created, I developed a website, I developed the entire backend. I mean, it’s an easy website, but I did it all myself. I’ve never coded a website before, and I’ve been able to do so because of ChatGPT and because it was, you know, telling me step by step, “Okay, now you need to do this, now you need to do this, now you need to do this.” And every single step of the way, if I had questions, it helped me. So for me, that has been a massive time saver. And I think also for developers, you know, it will be a massive time saver because it can create a large part of your code and you only need to tweak it a little bit here and there, which in itself is quite an advantage. And I think it will just speed up and it will make developers more productive. So I think that’s one really interesting perspective. And, of course, there are so many tools available nowadays that make life easier for developers, which is another big advantage. So there’s just a big, big change here happening for developers.

Zach Gardner: So, I guess, maybe switching gears a little bit, like you mentioned you do work with governments, you do work with Fortune 500 companies. When they approach you, what are some of the more common questions they’re asking you right now?

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Well, I think there are many different questions, but they’re all related to, “What do we need to do now?” Because that’s the biggest challenge. I mean, many organizations, especially the large ones, and I recently spoke to an organization in the EU where we had this conversation, and I was actually speaking with a chief information security officer. And, you know, he has so many responsibilities to make sure that his organization runs smoothly, but at the same time, they need to look into the future and they need to understand what these technologies will bring. And I think one of the most important things to understand is how to deal with that, you know, to balance the responsibilities of the day-to-day, you know, managing the day-to-day business, as well as thinking about how to prepare your organization for the future. And that’s a really difficult balance. So when I talk to these executives, they ask me these questions, “How can we balance this?” “How can we prepare our organization for what’s to come?” “What do we need to do right now in order to be ready for the future?” And I think that has to do with, you know, education and training your employees. That has to do with looking into the future, looking at the different technologies, how they impact your organization. That has to do with developing a long-term perspective on these new technologies and how to integrate them into your organization. So there are so many different aspects, but they all come back to, “What do we need to do right now?”

Zach Gardner: Okay. So maybe just last question, you mentioned you’re a, how did you phrase it, optimistic dystopian. Is that what you said?

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Yes, exactly.

Zach Gardner: All right, so what is your optimistic dystopian take on the next 12 months? What do you see happening? What are your predictions?

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Well, I think the next 12 months are going to be absolutely fascinating. I mean, it’s impossible to predict, of course, but there are some trends that we see happening. So if we look at, for example, what’s happening with AI, with generative AI, I think we will see even more new tools coming out. I think we will see the integration of these tools into many different aspects of our lives, both personal and professional. I think we will see a lot of discussions about the ethics and the responsibilities of AI. I think we will see, you know, more and more regulation coming into place, especially in the EU, but also in the U.S. And I think we will see some interesting developments in terms of how these new technologies are being used. And, of course, we will also see some backlash, because that’s always what happens with new technologies. So, I think the next 12 months are going to be absolutely fascinating. There will be a lot of opportunities, a lot of challenges, and I think it’s just a matter of, you know, trying to stay ahead of the curve and trying to understand what’s happening and trying to prepare yourself as best as possible for these new developments.

Zach Gardner: Very good. Very good. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. Where can people find you if they want to learn more?

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Well, they can find me on my website, thedigitalspeaker.com, or on LinkedIn, where I’m very active. They can follow my newsletter, Synthetic Mind, and they can, of course, listen to my new podcast, which will be launched very soon.

Zach Gardner: Excellent. Excellent. Well, thanks again, and we’ll see you next time.

Dr. Mark van Rijmenam: Thank you, Zach. It was a pleasure.